Curse

faraaz · Jan 30, 2009, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proff

There's helping and there's beating factions again for absolutely no reason....

Yea..exactly. And there's these ppl who spam you random questions all the time, like for EVERYTHING.

What's a good monk hero build? What's a good weapon for a monk hero? What about a ritualist instead? Do you have any good builds? My monks are very bad, can you come do this mission for me please? And on and on and on...

Ugh...lern2wiki noobs!

Cebe · Jan 30, 2009, 10:59 AM // 10:59

The main problem stems from the fact that the Guild Wars community seems to be getting more and more lazy. Newer players want everything now, and are not prepared to earn it. Helping people is enjoyable, but it does become difficult when that person then spams you for help every time they get a new quest.

I tried to take a new tactic a while back. I stood in The Marketplace and found people wanting help with getting to Vizunah Square. On the way I would watch how they played, and what skills their heroes used. On the way, I would make comments about my observations, starting with general ones to start with, to see what reaction I got. Some people out there are genuinely nice, and I have made some very good friends through doing this. For the players who were prepared to take criticism, I helped them to develop their skills and tactics, and show them how to make the most of their heroes. I would help them on a few missions and quests here and there, always doing the same thing, and they become noticeably better. Now those I helped are doing the same for others, and rarely call on me for help any more without having tried and failed something many times first.

If they wont take criticism and just want you to do things for them, cut the ties. If they are willing to learn and take on advice, help them out, stick with them, and help them become better players. If you fix the root of the problem it drastically helps them to fend for themselves if they have to Hero/Hench stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panais

^^typical guru @$$hole.
he means ppl that end up spaming help msgs.

You need to make your position known early on to prevent the continual messaging. Trying things like "have you even tried it yourself first?" sometimes works. If they say "no", you can then say "well I can't help right now, but if you did you might find out how easy it is.". It's invariably the case that these players haven't even bothered trying it themselves before they ask for help.

I also firmly believe that just saying "no" isn't the answer. Unless it's a cereal offender who only asks for help all the time I find the following quite useful, for people you don't know who regularly ask for help in Alliance Chat:

1: "Can someone help with {Mission}???"
1: "Please? Anyone free???"
2: "Busy now sry"
3: "I'm farming lol"
me: "I'm busy just now, have you tried it yourself yet?"
1: "Yes I died"
me: "Have you tried taking {hero} with {skills}? Also using {Henchmen} is useful because they have {Skill}"
me: "I might be able to help after I'm finished vanquishing, but I'll be a while".
1: "ok thanks, I'll try with that".

I invariably find that they go and try it with the advice you gave, and often succeed.

Telling people you're busy just makes them spam harder until they find someone to help them. Suggesting a solution "in the meantime" until you might be free works quite well usually. It often seems to make them go away and think about builds a bit.

Fril Estelin · Jan 30, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

If they wont take criticism and just want you to do things for them, cut the ties. If they are willing to learn and take on advice, help them out, stick with them, and help them become better players. If you fix the root of the problem it drastically helps them to fend for themselves if they have to Hero/Hench stuff.

While you're right and it sounds you speak from a lot of experience, I also noticed how people (not necessarily the experienced ones I guess) often mention that newbies are noobs. And it happens that the conclusion of their reasoning becomes true even before they observe and talk to newbies, a phenomenon well known in sociology where the words generate the problem, rather than the problem generating the words.

I guess some experienced and helpful players (everyone can be helpful and spread the lessons they learned, which is the only way to maintain a very healthy community) can be discouraged from helping simply by listening at the general ambiance, without any "real evidence", just a depressing feeling that newbies are kids who "want, want, want, me, me, me" (these guys exist).

After last wintersday, I went to offer my unused CCSs to people in Ascalon City, only to have this guy who said he was a newbie to cancel the trade several times, when I whisped him I just wanted to offer free CCSs but he ignored me, only to whisp me back a while after that I was an "ass". It takes some cool to ignore this reaction and continue doing what you were doing before, rather than simply forget about giving stuff (I agree that giving advices is a much more important thing to do, but stuff helps too and it's always nice).

Crystal Lake · Jan 30, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Hmmmm. In our Guild we always tell new recruits it's okay to ask for help and ask questions, but there is to be no begging or our Guild leader will kick you from the guild. It seems to work.

I don't mind people asking for help or if they ask questions in chats because that's one reason you belong to a guild. When you're new, a lot of missions and just plain getting around can be hard if you don't understand builds, have lousy armor and a crap weapon. People might forget that once they've played for a bit and run around with beefed up heroes. On the other hand we do get spammed in alliance chat for things. "Anyone have an ambrace?", was one recent request, and "anyone have a white dye I can have?. LOL. Always is the same people asking over and over, and others get indignant if they can't find people to help them the moment they ask for it. The Guild Wars world does reflect the real world in its own little way.

CagedinSanity · Jan 31, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I often find myself stopping mid-quest in an outpost to answer someone's question I saw pop up. I give information, and often.

That's it. They get nothing else from me other than information and time. I've been jaded by idiots and raving lunatics who want something for nothing.

Deadshot Seven · Jan 31, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

I've been in both YaRR and LaZy because I wanted to figure out why they're so big.
I left about two hours later after joining either.
Can you guess why?
Hint: Its the same problem this guy has.

evestormspear · Jan 31, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

this topic has made me want to create an account just to reply so im going to say an answer that sums up almost everything you guys have been saying except for the money beggers and such

while reading my uncle johns bathroom reader (i know it sounds odd :P) i saw this footnote on the bottom of the page from the chinese philosopher Conficious:"Fish for a man once,feed him for a day.Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

feel free to reply

Skyy High · Jan 31, 2009, 08:03 AM // 08:03

The trouble is that a) there is not one hungry man, there is a seemingly endless number of them, b) a good number of the people who know how to fish taught themselves to do it with the tools available, and aren't terribly keen on dragging someone else along who doesn't at least attempt to do the same, and c) why should I care if random person #34134238837 doesn't know how to fish?

That said, I'll give information, fast price checks, and general advice to people who ask for it in allchat, unless they're spamming - in which case they don't get anything - or if they don't listen to me the first time and keep asking, in which case they get yelled at once or twice and then ignored.

evestormspear · Jan 31, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

The trouble is that a) there is not one hungry man, there is a seemingly endless number of them, b) a good number of the people who know how to fish taught themselves to do it with the tools available, and aren't terribly keen on dragging someone else along who doesn't at least attempt to do the same, and c) why should I care if random person #34134238837 doesn't know how to fish?

That said, I'll give information, fast price checks, and general advice to people who ask for it in allchat, unless they're spamming - in which case they don't get anything - or if they don't listen to me the first time and keep asking, in which case they get yelled at once or twice and then ignored.

Thats a quote that he said, your supposed to look at it like its a non-linear guideline to life.A)Even if their are a seemingly endless number of them how about you help one of them and tell them to pay it foward and help of one their lost friends and so on and so fourth and soon enough that seemingly endless number does have a end.

B)IF you know how to "fish" and are not keen on dragging someone in to teach them why not just ask them to attempt it, and if they fail you will help them.(then again there are those fakers that never attempted it and then u ask them whats hard about the quest or mission after they "attempted" it they won't know then u tell them to buzz off.)

C)Its a quote.

dread slayer · Jan 31, 2009, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I have a friend who was asking for help while I had a 3 winning streak in Rb racing.
Told her I was busy... then she started spamming: Are you done yet?
It's kind of annoying and plus she was bribing me, which totally pissed me off. When I was done, I just logged off.

I only help people who actually know patience is a virtue.

Shadowspawn X · Jan 31, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

I generally don't help people with missions unless they have failed them repeatedly and are truly stuck. A few missions I will make an exception because something like Eternal Grove its obvious you need someone to tend the other gate for masters. I consider these type missions reasonable requests. But a person can generally just get a PUG and in HM the PUG's are really quite good.

I have np giving information and sometimes I run across people stranded in a town and don't know what to do next. I will take this person and ask them what is the last quest they have in their log and help them figure out where they need to go next. Sometimes I will run them back to what they have skipped. I recently met some one stranded in Zos Shivros Channel gave them a run to Cavalon and helped them get the proper quests to move forward. But I generally can't be bothered to redo content I've done 500 times over and over again for the sake of being "helpful".

Loot Junkie · Jan 31, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

I view helping people with low level missions as mutually beneficial; while helping them i reset my drops and get better loot

Da Tru Legend · Jan 31, 2009, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I help when I want to.
No one forces me to help.

As easy as pie.

/agree

If too many people ask me for help in a day, I'll let them know that's why I won't help anybody else for the rest of the day. If they insist on being annoying I'll just rage at them until they shut up or end up on my Ignore list. Doesn't happen often though.

~Tru

the_jos · Feb 01, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

In general, I don't offer help with materials, gold or items.
This does not mean I don't give any away, just that I do this because I like to and not because others asked for them.

However, the kind of help I offer is to play with random people once in a while.
Just tagging along, chatting a little and making small comments on how to do stuff. Once in a while asking people about why they made certain choices in builds, though if they don't want to ping them it's ok with me when I lead.
However, and that's something else, I only tag along with people around my own level when possible.
I used to help with level 20's, but it gives the impression that stuff is easy, when it's not when you are level 5 and have a limited skillset.
It limits the learning experience for completely new players. Or somewhat unexperienced players.
So they have to deal with my ~level 14 ele and monk on my second account.
I bring the game and profession experience but they still need to work active with me to get things done.

Now to something specific:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

While you're right and it sounds you speak from a lot of experience, I also noticed how people (not necessarily the experienced ones I guess) often mention that newbies are noobs.

I think many people who call others noobs are unable to distinguish between people who are new, those who don't communicate well enough or those who don't learn. The last would be the 'noob' and there ain't that many around in low and midlevel gameplay. Many of those players are willing to learn but don't have anyone to bring them to the next level.

Now the most difficult one to spot is the bad communicator. And it's hard when playing PuG.
Let me give an example. When I play warrior I need to gain adrenaline to get things done. I know this from experience, so when I play monk I'm always trying to be aware of blind on warriors (or other physicals). Many are just busy attacking without realising they are blinded. And if they do realise, they might ping but it's still my job to remove it. Same with hexes.
The moment I go into an area as monk without condition and hex removers knowing that my physicals would suffer it's my mistake, not theirs if they can't hit.
But now the situation changes. Instead of blind the warrior is facing a target with Aegis or Guardian on it. The warrior can't help that he's missing 50% of the time. Only thing he can do is switch target (if possible, with Aegis on all opponents) to keep building adrenaline and wait for the spell to wear off. Of for a mid-liner to remove it.
Now who's task is it to spot and call a skill like guardian when playing PuG?

The same with builds. I've seen very inventive builds that were absolutely worthless in certain situations. But they helped players get to that point, so they were working once. Doesn't mean someone isn't willing to learn, it's more likely that he will think the build is ok at first and look for other causes for failure. Because, you know, it worked before....
Without someone pointing the weak spot in the build he will keep failing for a while.

Now to the point where I've seen people called noob and stuff like that a lot.
The higher end of PvE, people who have access to elite areas and hard mode.
I've seen a lot of them who truely think they know everything, only their way works and everyone who thinks different is a noob.
Oh, and I see it once in a while in RA or other unorganised PvP-ish stuff.
People don't appreciate the effect of learning by failure anymore, they think everything is about winning and winning only.
PvX every build, because we know they win. Everything else isn't proven, so it doesn't win.
It's actually those kind of players who are closest to noobs and they tend to call others noob more often than most other players.

Now I need to be honest.
I don't like to play with relatively new players all the time.
I'm getting annoyed after a while of constant flow of questions about runes, traders, prices, can you help me with Great Wall, I don't know how to... and that kind of stuff.
I'm more like, well, go figure it out, click every npc you see, read what skills say. You can ask for help when you can't do Great Wall, but first tell what you did try and what worked and what didn't.
Or, something I tend to say at my work a lot... Go figure it out. We have a test environment, try stuff. You can't really break things by trying.
If you still can't figure things out, we can look at what you did and why it didn't work out the way you intended.
The same is true for GW. It's a game, you can't break things (well, can, but then you are hacking). And maybe you'll even invent the next annoying PvX build someday

Some_guy · Feb 01, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

There was a person exactly like the topic creator in the guild I used to be in.. similar sounding guild as well.. Gave away ToPK greens and stuff.. was a ( having a mental block, thing below leader, not just a member).

I wonder what guild it was..

pumpkin pie · Feb 02, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

i am very lucky that i am in a guild and alliance where players ask everytime they log on (a bit of exegeration, but they do ask) if anyone wanted help and also announces when there will have activities, eg: clearing cof or going to strat first mission before duncan or vanquishing xx area. hehehe but i don't go along because of my lag issue, since it will slow down everyone else and also all my character has level 20 heros. What i am saying is, promote this type of relationship in your guild/alliance instead of fostering answering to a single request. just a thought.

How i help other player:
go to low level area with my rodgort's invocation, take newbies across 2-3 mission easy even if they leech i know i could get out of those mission within half an hour... why not, if I can make one player happy everyday :P~

Sjeng · Feb 02, 2009, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I've seen the same thing happen in my alliance lots of times.
After getting tired of it, the leaders + officers in my alliance decided we'd add some alliance rules:

- do NOT spam for help in the a-chat.
- If you need help, you can ask nicely, but don't expect people to jump at your aid.
- If you help others, they will help you.
- The more you play with others, the more they will be inclined to help.
- Try something first, and if you fail, thén ask for help.

I always just state what I'm going to do, and people are free to join. I rarely need to ask for help anymore.
We also never give stuff away to new members. I had that backfire on me twice (guild-hoppers). I only help those I have gotten to know. It works.

cataphract · Feb 02, 2009, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Reading this thread made me realise why DVDF insists on a pretty rigorous recruitment policy.

illidan009 · Feb 03, 2009, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Nice that there are still people out there willing to help.

psion · Feb 04, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Once new players get free stuff and free help from people, they will be inclined to do it again as its the easy way out. So who is responsible for these so called "beggers"? Its a blurred line between helping a newbie and creating a parasite, and everyone has their own views.

Been through this cycle many times, and what I do now is:
1) When someone asks for help, I'll give advice. Its free and often the most useful.
2) I never help with easy missions. If they fail, it only means they haven't learnt enough. If they can't get past Minister Cho's Estate, what makes them think they can do later missions?
3) I help with Hard missions (in a new player's perspective) for new players. Along the mission I will include tips and comments and observations (like what to watch out, where to pull, what not to do). At the end of the mission, I'll get the player to tell me what he/she has learned in this mission. If he/she can't tell me anything, he/she will be on my begger/leech list and ignored for life.
4) I do not give handouts. Handouts create parasites. If they want something bad, I'll set a goal for them and it'll be a reward.
5) I do not run new players to towns. They need to know how to get around.

As for max armor for newbies, they do not need it. You do not need max armor on newbie island. So you think that termite can 1 hit you on your noob armor? The game is made such that you upgrade your armor progressively and you acquire the gold and mats needed along the way. If you want to jump right into max armor, pay for it yourself. I played through prophecies and my first max armor set was collected from trading with NPCs the collectable drops i get from killing mobs. Total cost? 0 gold.

Generally, its the attitude that is the most important. If a new player is not willing to spend time to learn, that player is not worth the time. I'll just ignore that player or kick him when he/she goes over the line. I rather have lesser beggers in my guilds and leave space for players that are willing to learn and play the game.

Don't help blindly. You're harming them by turning them into parasites. Its hard for them to change once they get the taste of "free" stuffs.